Curse

blkhawk153 · Oct 01, 2007, 05:04 AM // 05:04

i've heard there were effective P/W builds using sword/shield or axe/shield. is this true? how does it work?

Cowboy Nastyman · Oct 01, 2007, 09:56 AM // 09:56

yes its true, I have used axe to great effect including getting my legendary vanquisher. the keys to it are aggressive refrain or soldiers fury, burning refrain theyre on fire and go for the eyes, this allows you to keep a mob burning almost non stop and does great damage. throw in a few axe attacks, i prefer dismember and agonizing and you have a very strong melee.

Mr. Fahrenheit · Oct 01, 2007, 10:00 AM // 10:00

I myself use [skill]Soldier's Fury[/skill]+[skill]Natural Temper[/skill] with a hammer.

LightningHell · Oct 01, 2007, 10:58 AM // 10:58

Just to throw this in, but...

...Generally you'd function better with a spear.

But hey, it's PvE.

zwei2stein · Oct 01, 2007, 11:31 AM // 11:31

I would consult master of damage, hes out there to compare such stuff.

ToF axe tank is workable, but not really that good.

Spear is ranged, has very good damage and there is just no reason to go to meele unless you wanna tank, in which case ... fail.

Valeria · Oct 01, 2007, 11:34 AM // 11:34

the way male paragorns are wielding melee weapons is reason enough to use hammers and swords.

Chrono Re delle Ere · Oct 01, 2007, 01:06 PM // 13:06

haha yea they look nice

Well but I love spears, and I have a damn hot warrior too so I don't have any necessity to use a melee para

blkhawk153 · Oct 01, 2007, 10:17 PM // 22:17

so would u guys agree that melee wars > melee paras?

Racthoh · Oct 01, 2007, 10:36 PM // 22:36

I'll say this; a warrior that doesn't have 14-16 weapon is a wasted slot. So a paragon with at most 12 is not worth any spot in my party.

Johnny Madhouse · Oct 02, 2007, 02:44 AM // 02:44

The real damage from a ToF tank is not from the weapon the para is holding, rather it's the constant burning they apply. Here's a hero build I use on Morgahn. It's a P/D build, as scythes can hit multiple targets, raising damage output even more.

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Another option is an axe paragon for the shield and deep wound ability, if you prefer.

This makes an excellent hero build. Because everything around the para is constantly on fire, and because of the hero spamming GFTE for energy and flame triggering and using "They're on Fire", Party damage can be reduced by up to 37% with 16 leadership.

Basically, I don't even use warrior heroes anymore, as the only enemy that cannot be set on fire are the Destroyers and they're easier to kill with a curses necro anyway while my massive blinding ranger keeps them from actually hurting me.

The only location in which this build will not work is in any location with a 4-man party size. 6-man is slightly ineffiecient, but can be done. In 8-man teams, this build is better than a warrior for tanking 95% of the time.

Racthoh · Oct 02, 2007, 03:28 AM // 03:28

I can just bring a warrior and throw the Blazing Finale on it and accomplish the same thing, and have a higher weapon spec.

If you play that character as your only melee, mobs are going to throw all of their physical shutdown on you unless they spot a caster using a melee +5e weapon (Blurred on monk!). Any miss hexes, Soothing Images, blind, snares just wreck you something fierce unless they're removed ASAP. Otherwise all of your passive defensives are useless. You come up to a target with a block stance? Have to walk to the next target if you want to keep your adrenaline up to shout, and the other 7 members of your party have to change their position to stay in your bubble to get the effects of your shouts.

Let's compare that to a spear. I can change targets just before the current target expires so I don't miss a beat on my adrenaline gain. I'm targetted usually last because of my weapon + health + armour level, but still subject to blind/miss hexes but only after the targets with a melee weapon. Because I can attack from a range, I can easily get the entire party affected by my shouts without missing an attack.

I have no clue what the attraction is of a melee paragon, when they can perform their duties far better from range.

Cowboy Nastyman · Oct 02, 2007, 05:02 AM // 05:02

maybe because its fun yet still very effective?

Avarre · Oct 02, 2007, 05:32 AM // 05:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cowboy Nastyman

maybe because its fun yet still very effective?

Clearly there are some different definitions of 'effective' going around.

Trx · Oct 02, 2007, 11:10 AM // 11:10

Assuming we are talking about PvE here, just play whatever you want. Some people seem to think you have to run at 100% efficiency all the time and forget about the 'fun' part. A ToF tank might not be as good as a warrior for melee or a spear para for party support but its not completely useless either if used right.

Racthoh · Oct 02, 2007, 01:45 PM // 13:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by Trx

A ToF tank might not be as good as a warrior for melee or a spear para for party support but its not completely useless either if used right.

And not getting overloaded on shutdown. GW:EN has so much physical hate it's not even funny.

Quote:

people seem to think you have to run at 100% efficiency all the time and forget about the 'fun' part.

The problem I have is that from reading these boards is that a good majority of players have no idea how to play the paragon profession at any sort of efficiency. They'll see a thread promoting this ToF tank, all of the praise it receives, but then when they start to hit the harder areas and getting hit with shutdown they wonder why their amazing build isn't working anymore. At which point they'll search the boards more and find a build that does what they need for those areas, which in most cases is some overly defensive build with 0 spear mastery.

Trx · Oct 02, 2007, 02:14 PM // 14:14

True, its more a gimmick type build you can use when you want to stick to your paragon to work on titles for example but need a change from spear chucking all the time.

Cowboy Nastyman · Oct 02, 2007, 09:17 PM // 21:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by Racthoh

And not getting overloaded on shutdown. GW:EN has so much physical hate it's not even funny.

The problem I have is that from reading these boards is that a good majority of players have no idea how to play the paragon profession at any sort of efficiency. They'll see a thread promoting this ToF tank, all of the praise it receives, but then when they start to hit the harder areas and getting hit with shutdown they wonder why their amazing build isn't working anymore. At which point they'll search the boards more and find a build that does what they need for those areas, which in most cases is some overly defensive build with 0 spear mastery.

i had no problems with melee shutdown anywhere including all of hard mode, so trying to say a melee para can't handle all the "melee shutdown" really doesn't hold up.

my "inefficient melee para" going toe to toe with duncan.

I really don't care that some elitist people on these boards think that a spear para is supposedly better, my point is a melee para can do it all too and is a lot of fun to play.

Racthoh · Oct 03, 2007, 05:57 AM // 05:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cowboy Nastyman

my "inefficient melee para" going toe to toe with duncan.

Unless Duncan was changed from when I did it with my paragon, I don't recall him using any forms of shutdown. I can stand in front of casters with my paragon too if I wanted to, and kite out of the disco ball in this instance. It's also not like Slaver's is very difficult. You can hero/hench it with a variety of professions.

Quote:

i had no problems with melee shutdown anywhere including all of hard mode, so trying to say a melee para can't handle all the "melee shutdown" really doesn't hold up

I'm not saying the melee paragon can't handle the shutdown, I'm saying a paragon can perform their duties far better from a range. By pulling out a melee weapon, you become more suspectable to shutdown as that is how the AI has been programmed. I can accomplish exactly what the melee paragon is made to do with more efficiency from a range.

Firstly, there is Blazing Finale. This is going to trigger whenever a shout ends on you. The build as far as I understand revolves around mashing Go For The Eyes! once it fills up so everything around you burns. All this skill requires is a body to function, one that is attacking with a weapon obviously. There is no advantage to using it on yourself compared to someone who is naturally in the fray.

The other culprit is Go For The Eyes!. Your typical PvE group is going to have one physical that can soak damage, so in this case if the melee paragon is the only physical the critical +% is basically a waste. At most a 12 specced axe or sword, nothing too scary. Axe and sword also have no good energy attack skills that you could use so all you're doing is giving hope that a random auto-attack gets the critical hit for some extra damage. And since you're going to be hitting GftE! roughly every 3 seconds to keep the burning on, you are constantly taking a strike of adrenaline from your other pools meaning you attack skills are filling at a slower pace. There is a reason why Whirling Axe is so very bad, even if the disable mechanism was removed.

In this same situation had you been using a typical melee profession there is no loss of efficiency. You can use your GftE! with an energy attack like Spear of Lightning; a critical hit on a skill with 25% AP is really nice, even more so on a sundering critical. The warrior/assassin/dervish echoed with Blazing Finale attacks as normal, and triggers the AoE burning without any effects on his own adrenaline pools.

Now, when we add shutdown into the equation, specifically melee shutdown as Ward Melee is far more common than Shield's Up! as an example you can see the picture a lot better. You're missing while you swing away at a target in a ward, I could be building adrenaline so when the melee does finally land a blow I've already built a GftE! to begin the burning. A snare on our melee wrecks both of us and destroys the defense and offense of the build entirely, which right away is enough for me to say I don't want to use this build ever.

Quote:

I really don't care that some elitist people on these boards think that a spear para is supposedly better, my point is a melee para can do it all too and is a lot of fun to play.

Can it? Sure. Better? Never. Just as well? Not if I were to put that finale on a melee. The damage with your weapon will not be as good as someone who was meant to use it, and the burning triggers would be more frequent when the shouter is less suspectable to shutdown. I can't possibly think of a reason other than 'it's fun' that would want to make me ditch the spear.

ayame ftw · Oct 03, 2007, 06:21 AM // 06:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by Racthoh

I'll say this; a warrior that doesn't have 14-16 weapon is a wasted slot. So a paragon with at most 12 is not worth any spot in my party.

I dont know about u, but when i have a warrior in my team he is a tank and doesn’t have many skills in his sword/hammer/axe attribute they rather max out strength and tactic’s.

But I do agree that a paragon should stay close to the people he wants to boost, so if he uses shouts that are beneficial for the casters, then he should use a spear and attack from a ranged postion, if his shouts are more focused on melee, then I think it wouldn’t hurt to fight together in the front with the warriors.

Squishy ftw · Oct 03, 2007, 06:32 AM // 06:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by ayame ftw

I dont know about u, but when i have a warrior in my team he is a tank and doesn’t have many skills in his sword/hammer/axe attribute they rather max out strength and tactic’s.

I hope you only play in doa or slaver's then because in almost all other PvE areas a Tank is nothing more than a serious waste of a very high dps char.